You'll just have to watch the video to see how the 16MHz, 32bit CPU performed on an 8-bit bus! It's up on my Patreon and Substack now, and
it will likely be up on YouTube this weekend if I get my A into G before
I fly to AKL tomorrow.

Just seen it, thats quite interesting. I'm not that surprised the benchmark performance is in the 286 territory given that a lot will be hampered by the 4.77 Mhz ISA bus. Though I would have expected a bit more, the memory is on the same board as the 386 so that shouldn't be that bottlenecked....

Also interesting to see that win 3.1 wasn't happy running in enhanced mode though a custom intel modified win 3.0 worked.

That may mean there's hope yet of getting things working in win 3.1... Win 3.0 & win3.1 are not that different sometimes you cold get unsupported hardware working in win 3.1 by using a win 3.0 driver.

So I did some searching around the Internet and if this old vfecd.org post is correct, if you've got the intel modified win 3.0 working, you should be able to get win 3.1 working as well with a few tweaks & copied .drv files.

nc_mike's post (post #10) outline's the files & config changes they made. I wonder if this will work for you.

https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/running-win32s-on-ibm-5150-with-inboar
d-386-pc.50051/

... He's two saucers short of a tea-service.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
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Just seen it, thats quite interesting. I'm not that surprised the benchmar performance is in the 286 territory given that a lot will be hampered by t 4.77 Mhz ISA bus. Though I would have expected a bit more, the memory is o same board as the 386 so that shouldn't be that bottlenecked....

I'd say it's in the 386 territory especially when it doesn't need to do bus transfers

Also interesting to see that win 3.1 wasn't happy running in

enhanced mode ki> though a custom intel modified win 3.0 worked.

That may mean there's hope yet of getting things working in win 3.1... Win & win3.1 are not that different sometimes you cold get unsupported hardwar working in win 3.1 by using a win 3.0 driver.

I believe someone has already gotten it going with Windows 3.11 (but not 3.1)

So I did some searching around the Internet and if this old vfecd.org post correct, if you've got the intel modified win 3.0 working, you should be a to get win 3.1 working as well with a few tweaks & copied .drv files.

hmmm, I'll check it out!

nc_mike's post (post #10) outline's the files & config changes they made. wonder if this will work for you.

https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/running-win32s-on-ibm-5150-with- d-386-pc.50051/

I'll give it a shout!

... He's two saucers short of a tea-service.

hyjinx // Alistair Ross
Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)

Just seen it, thats quite interesting. I'm not that surprised the benchmark performance is in the 286 territory given that a lot will be hampered by the 4.77 Mhz ISA bus. Though I would have expected a bit
more, the memory is on the same board as the 386 so that shouldn't be
that bottlenecked....

Interesting... I guess its going to depend on the mobo and what the chipsets support, but I seem to recall being able to set the ISA bus speed higher than 4.77Mhz. You couldn't go to wild, and it depended a lot on the cards you had installed.

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

Interesting... I guess its going to depend on the mobo and what the chipsets support, but I seem to recall being able to set the ISA bus
speed higher than 4.77Mhz. You couldn't go to wild, and it depended a
lot on the cards you had installed.

ST

yeah, the XT-IDE doesn't like being driven at more than 8-10 MHz if memory serves. I clocked my IBM 5162 at 10MHz and things were generally stable on that stock 286 motherboard. I dare say if I wanted to, I could figure out a way to change the speed of the bus on this 5160, but to be honest, nothing is so slow right now that I'm in a world of pain. The main task was to be able to use protected mode and that has been achieved. The secondary goal was to multi-task in a meaningful way, with two applications doing at least round-house tasking or pre-emptive multi-tasking. That too has been achieved with DesqView with the addition of the ParrotyError memory board to take the system RAM to 4MB. Everything else now is just the icing on the cake!

I'm reaching out to a friend who (might) have a 386->486 top hat cpu upgrade. That would be wild!

Have you ever up-clocked the bus speed on the original 5150/5160? If so, I'd be interested to hear what you did!

Cheers,
Al


hyjinx // Alistair Ross
Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)

kirkspragg wrote to hyjinx <=-

Just seen it, thats quite interesting. I'm not that surprised the benchmark performance is in the 286 territory given that a lot will be hampered by the 4.77 Mhz ISA bus. Though I would have expected a bit
more, the memory is on the same board as the 386 so that shouldn't be
that bottlenecked....

I thought the bus was driven by the CPU clock back then? Up the CPU
clock, up the bus speed - hence the concern about timing and crashes.


--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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I thought the bus was driven by the CPU clock back then? Up the CPU
clock, up the bus speed - hence the concern about timing and crashes.

Ah yes, of course you are correct. I was getting my wires crossed with later boards. I blame looking at radiation-making CRTs!

The odd thing here is that now I am using the Intel Inboard/386, the card plugs directly into the CPU socket and the i8088 is nowhere to be seen. So I assume that the card controls the bus speed, which is kinda meta if you think about it. Otherwise, if it didn't, the 80386 is running at 16MHz, which is too fast for the motherboard to handle without crashes.

-Al


hyjinx // Alistair Ross
Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)

figure out a way to change the speed of the bus on this 5160, but to be honest, nothing is so slow right now that I'm in a world of pain. The
main task was to be able to use protected mode and that has been
achieved. The secondary goal was to multi-task in a meaningful way, with

So beyond an intel modified win 3.0 & desqview, have you manged to get any other protected mode apps or games working?

I wonder if the usual dos extenders (DOS4GW) would work with your setup or would they fail like win 3.1?

I do wonder if using an alternative memory manager like QEMM will help, QEMM provides DPMI so may allow some dos protected mode extenders like DOS4GW to work with an intel inboard 386.

I'm reaching out to a friend who (might) have a 386->486 top hat cpu upgrade. That would be wild!

That would be really cool to see in action, I really hope it works out & we get to see the result on your youtube channel.

Have you ever up-clocked the bus speed on the original 5150/5160? If so, I'd be interested to hear what you did!

With an original 5160? Not aware of anything that would allow you to get the ISA bus running faster, though there were ways to use higher clocked 8088/NECv20 cpus at around 6-7Mhz with something called PC sprint which you are probably aware of (if you aren't google it or search vcfed's forums, there a bit there about it there). Ctrl-alt-rees has a video about it on his channel as well.

What about a turbo XT clone motherboard? Those had higher speed ISA buses, I wonder how the intel inboard 386 would work with one of those?

Thanks again for sharing you Intel Inboard 386 experiments & experiences with us, thats a really cool bit of hardware you've got there!

... I am Dvorak of Keyborg. Resistance is Qwerty.

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Have you ever up-clocked the bus speed on the original 5150/5160? If so, I'd be interested to hear what you did!

I only ever had the odd XT, and a variety of 286s the most flexible of which was some no name brand, but had a decent AMI BIOS and a NEAT chipset on it, that let you modify absolutely everything. So I don't have any helpful info.

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

I thought the bus was driven by the CPU clock back then? Up the CPU
clock, up the bus speed - hence the concern about timing and crashes.

Anecdotally this was the case for a large number of what I think of as lower end 286 mobos. With the odd case, particularly later models that gave you more ability to change all the BUS speeds to variety of different options. Related to oscillator speed, derivitives of that, CLK/2 CLK I had one that would even let you use the KB strobe..

Given the ISA bus was around so long, you had to be a little careful, as usually older cards tended to fail when driven to hard. Given that 10Mhz is near 200% spec its a big ask for an old card with slower components.

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

StormTrooper wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I thought the bus was driven by the CPU clock back then? Up the CPU
clock, up the bus speed - hence the concern about timing and crashes.

Anecdotally this was the case for a large number of what I think of as lower end 286 mobos. With the odd case, particularly later models that gave you more ability to change all the BUS speeds to variety of
different options. Related to oscillator speed, derivitives of that, CLK/2 CLK I had one that would even let you use the KB strobe..

There's a certain window of time in any hobby when the impossible
becomes possible, because you don't know it won't work.

In college, I wanted a faster AT, as I was doing lots of compile work.
Instead of buying a 287, I thought - hey, there's a 16mhz quzrtz
crystal on the motherboard. What if I swap it out with a faster crystal
from Radio Shack. Got the fastest crystal I could find, a 32mhz one,
desoldered the old one and put in the new. Instant crash. Sweated that
I'd destroyed the motherboard, went and found a 24 mhz crystal and that
worked - 12 mhz AT!

I should have just bought a 287.

Given the ISA bus was around so long, you had to be a little careful,
as usually older cards tended to fail when driven to hard. Given that 10Mhz is near 200% spec its a big ask for an old card with slower components.

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)

--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
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There's a certain window of time in any hobby when the impossible
becomes possible, because you don't know it won't work.

Sounds like my experience. With the realisation it was all driven by the single crystal, it was an obvious choice to try the overclock... but the best I ever got was a ~2Mhz improvement over stock. With the theory something on the board was to slow to keep up with anything faster.

ST

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 (Linux/64)
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So beyond an intel modified win 3.0 & desqview, have you manged to get any other protected mode apps or games working?

yes indeed. Anything protected mode seems to work normally. The last one I tried was a funny case: I like using vim as my text editor because old habits die hard. For MS-DOS, it's kinda limited because you can only get v7.1 without all the extra bits and bobs (real mode), however, if you have a 386 you can use the 7.3 version which runs in protected mode. It's much larger in size and at first, I thought it was going to be slow and unweildy, but because it mainly runs in ram, it's actually better performing than its real mode brother. Plus you can actually edit text files that are of a reasonable size because you're not worried about the conventional ram running out!

I do wonder if using an alternative memory manager like QEMM will help, QE provides DPMI so may allow some dos protected mode extenders like DOS4GW t work with an intel inboard 386.

I am running QEMM because DesqView automatically sets up QEMM on installation. I have tried all the memory managers too though, including the ILIM386.SYS one that comes with the card. I can't say which one performs better, they all seem around the same. I stick with QEMM because I'm using DesqView for my daily work.

I'm reaching out to a friend who (might) have a 386->486 top hat cpu upgrade. That would be wild!

That would be really cool to see in action, I really hope it works out & w to see the result on your youtube channel.

Yeah regardless of whether I can get my friend to give me his, I'll be trying to find one myself. It may take some time though, but the thought is'nt going to go away! I eblieve the chips known to work with it include Cx486DRx2, TI486SXL2, Kingston Hypertec, Evergreen, BL3 etc.

ISA bus running faster, though there were ways to use higher clocked 8088/NECv20 cpus at around 6-7Mhz with something called PC sprint which yo probably aware of (if you aren't google it or search vcfed's forums, there bit there about it there). Ctrl-alt-rees has a video about it on his chann well.

Yeah I know about C-A-Rees' channel and saw that video, and was briefly aware of the PC-Sprint years ago. I think now that's kinda redundant given the Inboard though.

What about a turbo XT clone motherboard? Those had higher speed ISA buses, wonder how the intel inboard 386 would work with one of those?

I have a clone Turbo XT kicking around. I dare say that it would perform the same, given that the clock is on the Inboard board itself. I read an article that shows people tearing off the clock on the Inboard and getting it to run stable at ~20MHz. I think 20MHz might be a misprint though because I am sure the clock on the board is 24MHz (CPU is 16MHz so a halfing op is done). So a clock of 40MHz as opposed to 20MHz would be more appropros.

Thanks again for sharing you Intel Inboard 386 experiments & experiences w us, thats a really cool bit of hardware you've got there!

Glad you are enjoying it! There is a slightly modified AT version on eBay (second hand, not in box). Today it's going for a measly USD $2,499.99 with $50 shipping. Grab yourself a bargain today ;).


hyjinx // Alistair Ross
Author of 'Back to the BBS' Documentary: https://bit.ly/3tRINeL (YouTube) alsgeeklab.com

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A49 2024/05/29 (Linux/64)
* Origin: bbs.alsgeeklab.com:2323 (21:1/126)

I am running QEMM because DesqView automatically sets up QEMM on installation. I have tried all the memory managers too though, including the ILIM386.SYS one that comes with the card. I can't say which one performs better, they all seem around the same. I stick with QEMM
because I'm using DesqView for my daily work.

I run QEMM in my MSDOS because it's the only system level extender from the old times that sees up to 256MB RAM, other were limited to 64MB.

Of course it changes nothing if you have a dos4gw game launched as it's still limited by 64MB of dos4gw's code... but still :) I like seeing whole available RAM at boot time.

-h1

... Xerox Alto was the thing. Anything after we use is just a mere copy.

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