poindexter FORTRAN wrote to tenser <=-

I just read about I-52, a japanese WWII cargo sub that sank with a
variety of cargo, including a significant amount of gold. The Japanese government declared it a grave site, but GOLD.

I have not researched this for any verification but allegedly the Chinese government has been pilfering the WWII wreckage of the HMS Prince of Wales
and the British are not too happy about it. They also consider it a grave site.


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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to paulie420 <=-

Yes, it's light. Yes it has great tensile strength. But, it shatters.
Some of the newer America's Cup sailboats shattered in the waves and foundered.

IndyCar car body parts are made of carbon fibre because it shatters on
impact and dissapates energy. Good for that reason, but it would also make
me suspect that the pressures of the ocean depths could also cause that to happen and someone should have thought of that.



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Aside: I read a study that looked at the impact of the Titanic and
other iceberg impacts, and hypothesized that if the Titanic hadn't
tried to maneuver to miss the iceberg, it would have hit head-on and survived, since only the bow compartments would have flooded.

I saw that also. Interesting hypothesis. I don't know about the bow of the Titanic, but I think the bows of some ships are designed to be more sturdy
than other parts of he hull.




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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to disconnex <=-

I always question when the media sensationalizes one story over the others. At the end of the day these were just 5 people who met an
untimely fate.

We had a caucasian news anchor on a local channel with a mixed-race
adopted daughter who called out the media frenzy over missing white
girls, while non-white missing kid stories may make it to the chyron
and be forgotten. He didn't last long.

Not that it matters, but weren't a couple of the passengers of British Arab descent?

Our local media seems to follow missing persons news regardless of the
color of the person. However, I cannot say which they drop faster if
something larger (something a current/former President did, a sub being
lost, etc.) pushes it out of the news cycle.


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Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Yes, it's light. Yes it has great tensile strength. But,
it shatters. Some of the newer America's Cup sailboats
shattered in the waves and foundered.

Founder, such a strange word. It means to fail (which is a
negative thing)..

Break down, literally or metaphorically
"The wall foundered"

Fail utterly; collapse
"The project foundered"

Yes...

Yet is also means to create (which is a positive thing)..

A person who founds or establishes some institution

No...

"Foundered" is not the same word as "Founds".



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On 25 Jun 2023, Gamgee said the following...

"Foundered" is not the same word as "Founds".

https://www.etymonline.com/word/founder

just related. also the relation to "fund" is interesting.

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I mean, a migrant boat capsized in the Mediterranean last week
and hundreds of people died, but we didn't see wall-to-wall
coverage of that.

Truth is, nobody cares about both, but some idiot billionaires decided on a suicide mission is what makes the first more spectacular.

African meat boats smuggling half dead, half breathing animals to Europe to satisfy never ending social system in Germany is something we got used to in EU. No big deal... the only problem is that it's hard to send them back.

-h1

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Its crazy that we send the earth, moon AND stars for 5 humans - when an entire boat full were in a similar situation.

Yeah. Attention works in weird (and oftentimes unfortunate) ways, at times.

had no idea; like the rest of the world, I was glued to the sub story - and had no idea that dozens of humans were trapped, drowning and in need of assets.

Yeah, the sub story was interesting and engaging, but _not_ because of it being especially important that people died.

At least, as we're saying, any more important than all the others dying on things that barely or don't make the news.

And, obviously, it'd be a terrible tragedy if anyone here were connected to any of the events. But our personal tragedies are different. I'll feel worse for anyone here losing a loved one.

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The problem with aluminum is that when it breaks, it turns into a hot molten slug that shoots into your car. I picked the carbon fiber intentionally to have something that would shred to pieces at failure.
So it seems a weird idea to use for a submersible...

Yep, that does seem like, "different materials for different tasks" is the right choice.

Kind of like how Starship is _steel_. Not because it's light, but because it's _forgiving_, whether in manufacture, repair, or plunging through the atmosphere creating a layer of plasma.

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While bad, it's not that tragic. A bunch of people stupid enough to put their lives in the hands of an incompetent Woke company died.

Incompetent company, but not sure how they were "woke". They're just another startup, but instead of breaking things with software on the internet, they broke things by literally breaking things and killing people.

Agreed that it's not that tragic, though. It's tragic like the guy who died in his home-made rocket.

As an aside, to me "woke" is an extremely political term, so please be careful with using it, as this is not the place for such discussions.

If someone has a definition of "woke" that's clear, non-political, and follows the rules/ethos of FSXnet, feel free to share it, as I haven't been exposed to it.

Well, aside from, "She woke with a start, her pleasant dream imploding like a rich man's carbon-fiber submersible.".

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it's easy to become arrogant when you have repeated success with your equipment.. i'm sure every time they returned safely they just though "see that was fine" .. probably laughed at the nay-sayers. not anymor

It's like someone sucking down a pack of smokes and then saying they didn't catch lung cancer.

Interestingly, I think both those are both examples of normalcy bias.

Which is a fascinating topic. It's why, when tornado sirens go off, people start asking each other if everything is okay, etc., rather than doing the safe thing.

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Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

Incompetent company, but not sure how they were "woke".

That's based on statements by the company president.

They're just another startup,

Who's company president publically stated that he wanted a diverse group of employees instead of competant people (i.e. old white men).

As an aside, to me "woke" is an extremely political term, so please be careful with using it, as this is not the place for such discussions.

Political or not, it was part of this situation and should not be ignored.

Too often certain people don't want the term "woke" to be applied to failures even when it's clear that the failure was caused by woke ideology.


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Re: Re: Submarine Deaths
By: paulie420 to HusTler on Fri Jun 23 2023 04:33 pm

I think the true cause was exploration... the attempt to push boundaries, of epths for decades... and safely - the Adam submarine has went down to the Ti ight and CERTIFICATION.

TBH there are plenty manufacturing plants with all their safety papers and certifications in order that seem to me to be running on 3rd world standards.

There are lots of things that are not recognized as valid ways of doing things according to the letter of reglaments and still engineers have been doing them for decades for great effect.

I mean, when I was doing subjects related to structure engineering at college, we would get our Technical Edification Code books and the teacher would have us rip chapters out because those would get people killed.

The real ticket is knowing what you are doing and testing it - because sometimes you think you know more than you do and stuff crashes. This is, there has to be some procedure. That does not mean that official certifications are the best procedure, IMO. THey are just the ones that cover your ass, because if you build something using an official standard and it crashes, they can't sue you so easily because it is all 100% legal.

IMO it is fine to let people try dangeour stuff if they like. Even in the worst case scenario, society learns something. If your submarine gets smashed we already know of a way not to build submarines anymore.

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Re: Re: Submarine Deaths
By: tenser to disconnex on Sun Jun 25 2023 08:24 am

Andrew's point about _why_ people may want to visit the
Titanic seems sound to me, but that it costs a quarter
of a million US to go still seems kind of macabre.

Visiting the Titanic sounds to me a lot like visiting a castle or something. It is a visit of Historic interest. Some castles that are open to visitors have dungeons in which they let the corpses of prisoners pile up until there was a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people and for some reason nobody thinks visiting such places is macabre.

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careful with using it, as this is not the place for such discussions.

Political or not, it was part of this situation and should not be
ignored.

Here it absolutely should be. FSXnet is a no-politics, no-religion zone for good reason.

Too often certain people don't want the term "woke" to be applied to failures even when it's clear that the failure was caused by woke ideology.

They failed to hire or listen to people who could've made it safer. That's the failure.

Them getting a diverse workforce should help them with dealing with blindspots that might be there if they just hire all tech bros. If they _didn't_ hire old, white, experienced guys, they failed at getting a diverse workforce.

But, again, I don't actually want this discussion; I want to not discuss "woke" things in a no-politics zone.

Sure, the topics are important; so are politics and religion, in general. But that's what Fidonet or Dovenet are for. Here is the reprieve from those topics.

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Founder, such a strange word. It means to fail (which is a
negative thing)..
Yet is also means to create (which is a positive thing)..

Another for the fascinating list of auto-antonyms!

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open to visitors have dungeons in which they let the corpses of
prisoners pile up until there was a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people
and for some reason nobody thinks visiting such places is macabre.

I like visiting cemeteries. It's probably a _bit_ macabre.

That said, I think a dungeon with a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people would absolutely be macabre.

As would the death mask on a sarcophagus where it looks skeletal or like a necromancer, which I saw fairly recently.

Still fascinating, though.

I'm guessing I'd never want to visit the Titanic, even if free and in a reliable and spacious submersible, but if it were more like a, "walk through and see this, in and out in 20 minutes", yeah, I absolutely would, and take pictures.

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Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

If they
_didn't_ hire old, white, experienced guys, they failed at getting a diverse workforce.

Which, IMHO, is what makes them "woke" (trying to make it look like they
are doing the right thing and wanting attention for it) vs. actually doing
the right thing. While, in many cases, that could involve some stance that
is political or politicized, it does not have to.

I have the unverified impression that they may used "diversity" as an
excuse to avoid hiring people with more experience who might tell them that their ideas were bad.



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Re: Re: Submarine Deaths
By: Adept to Arelor on Mon Jun 26 2023 02:24 pm

That said, I think a dungeon with a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people would

I meant they let corpses pile up in the pass, centuries ago. Then they converted the room into a souvenir store.

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That said, I think a dungeon with a layer of 1.5 meters of dead people

I meant they let corpses pile up in the pass, centuries ago. Then they converted the room into a souvenir store.

...yep, totally not macabre at all.

Along that line, in Münster there's a cage or two hanging up high from a church, that's been there for a few hundred years, and was used to display what happens to the out-of-favor people.

I had heard of that, but only later found out that it was used _once_, and for people who had ruled Münster for all of a year.

And it seems a little macabre to have this thing hanging up high for everyone to see, for hundreds of years, and people don't seem especially bothered by any meaning to it all.

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Which is a fascinating topic. It's why, when tornado sirens go off,
people start asking each other if everything is okay, etc., rather than doing the safe thing.

Reminds me of being deployed and hearing the "incoming!" sirens go off and just continuing going about my business.

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Who's company president publically stated that he wanted a diverse group of employees instead of competant people (i.e. old white men).

I think you're mischaracterizing why he picked the people he did. He just didn't want old dudes piloting this thing because he didn't think it would excite people.

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esc wrote to Dr. What <=-

Who's company president publically stated that he wanted a diverse group of employees instead of competant people (i.e. old white men).

I think you're mischaracterizing why he picked the people he did. He
just didn't want old dudes piloting this thing because he didn't think
it would excite people.

I did not mischaracterize anything. He wanted diversity over competence.


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I did not mischaracterize anything. He wanted diversity over competence.

Fun facts for ya

Navy sub captains are typically under or around 30.

All of the top leadership at the company were over 50.

The guy piloting the sub, the CEO, was 61.

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esc wrote to Dr. What <=-

I did not mischaracterize anything. He wanted diversity over competence.

Fun facts for ya

Navy sub captains are typically under or around 30.

Ummmmm..... no. Closer to 40 than 30. It also varies by submarine
type, where an "attack" sub is commanded by a Navy Commander (rank O-5),
but the "missile" subs are commanded by a Navy Captain (rank O-6). You
do not reach those ranks by age 30, ever. Most Commanders are late
30's, and most Captains are early/mid 40's.

Background - I did 28 years in the Navy, and served on a submarine
briefly in my early career. :-)

All of the top leadership at the company were over 50.
The guy piloting the sub, the CEO, was 61.

No argument with any of that.



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Ummmmm..... no. Closer to 40 than 30. It also varies by submarine
type, where an "attack" sub is commanded by a Navy Commander (rank O-5), but the "missile" subs are commanded by a Navy Captain (rank O-6). You do not reach those ranks by age 30, ever. Most Commanders are late
30's, and most Captains are early/mid 40's.

Fair enough :) But still not super old white dudes.

However I'm friends with a former nuclear sub XO and he said that for the most part, sub crews are very young. He was in his 20s as XO.

Background - I did 28 years in the Navy, and served on a submarine briefly in my early career. :-)

Thanks for your service!

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esc wrote to Gamgee <=-

Ummmmm..... no. Closer to 40 than 30. It also varies by submarine
type, where an "attack" sub is commanded by a Navy Commander (rank O-5), but the "missile" subs are commanded by a Navy Captain (rank O-6). You
do not reach those ranks by age 30, ever. Most Commanders are late
30's, and most Captains are early/mid 40's.

Fair enough :) But still not super old white dudes.

Agreed!

However I'm friends with a former nuclear sub XO and he said that
for the most part, sub crews are very young. He was in his 20s as
XO.

I've got to say that I find that hard to believe... I mean, do the
math... Graduate college at 22, and 6-7 years later you're an LCDR
(O-4) in the Navy, and have completed Nuke school, Division Officer and
Dept Head tours, screened for XO, and become an XO? I'm sorry but it's
really not possible.


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Ogg wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Yet is also means to create (which is a positive thing)..

A person who founds or establishes some institution

It's an auto-antonym! A word that means one meaning and its opposite.

Like Home-bound.



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Blue White wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

IndyCar car body parts are made of carbon fibre because it shatters on impact and dissapates energy.

I would think metal crumple zones would do a better job, but they're
designed to be thin, not safe.




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Blue White wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I saw that also. Interesting hypothesis. I don't know about the bow
of the Titanic, but I think the bows of some ships are designed to be
more sturdy than other parts of he hull.

The titanic had watertight compartments, and so flooding on a head-on
collision would have been much less than the glancing blow that opened
several compartments to the sea. Makes sense theoretically.

They had examples of boats that had survived during similar head-on
collisions, but you need to be aware of survivorship bias.

There's a story about bomber designers looking at damage patterns of US
bombers during WW II. There were definite patterns of bullet holes in
surviving airplanes that they wanted to go ahead and re-inforce. One of
the engineers said they needed to look at the areas that *didn't* get
hit, hypothesizing that the ones that were hit in those areas didn't
make it back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias



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Adept wrote to Dr. What <=-

Well, aside from, "She woke with a start, her pleasant dream imploding like a rich man's carbon-fiber submersible.".

Sounds like a novel idea.



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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Blue White <=-

There's a story about bomber designers looking at damage patterns of US bombers during WW II. There were definite patterns of bullet holes in surviving airplanes that they wanted to go ahead and re-inforce. One of the engineers said they needed to look at the areas that *didn't* get
hit, hypothesizing that the ones that were hit in those areas didn't
make it back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

That makes sense to me. If the holes on planes that made it back were not enough to bring them down, I would think looking were they were not hit and figuring out why those areas might make a plane more vulnerable would make sense.


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Gamgee wrote to esc <=-

All of the top leadership at the company were over 50.
The guy piloting the sub, the CEO, was 61.

No argument with any of that.

I wonder what experience he had.




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Blue White wrote to Gamgee <=-

All of the top leadership at the company were over 50.
The guy piloting the sub, the CEO, was 61.

No argument with any of that.

I wonder what experience he had.

Not completely sure, but I think he (the CEO) was generally the pilot of
the sub on previous missions.



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Gamgee wrote to Blue White <=-

I wonder what experience he had.

Not completely sure, but I think he (the CEO) was generally the pilot
of the sub on previous missions.

Yeah, I was thinking before that. Like was he in the Navy and on a sub, or
did he work for other companies/government organizations that do deep sea exploration?

Guess I am looking for experience that should have taught him not to skimp
on safety and/or inspect the equipment more often.



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Blue White wrote to Gamgee <=-

I wonder what experience he had.

Not completely sure, but I think he (the CEO) was generally the pilot
of the sub on previous missions.

Yeah, I was thinking before that. Like was he in the Navy and on
a sub, or did he work for other companies/government
organizations that do deep sea exploration?

Guess I am looking for experience that should have taught him not
to skimp on safety and/or inspect the equipment more often.

He grew up a rich kid, expensive education, was mostly in
aviation/aerospace before this OceanGate thing. No real knowledge or experience. He ignored a lot of rules and skimped on a lot of things.
He and four others are now dead because of it.

Here's more on him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockton_Rush



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esc wrote to Dr. What <=-

I did not mischaracterize anything. He wanted diversity over competence.

Fun facts for ya

You mean "fun facts that are irrelevant".


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Hello pF!

** On Monday 26.06.23 - 06:33, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Ogg:

It's an auto-antonym! A word that means one meaning and its opposite.

First time I hear of auto-antonyms.

Like Home-bound.

I thought that was house-bound. And from where I come from,
that means limited or restricted within one's home. Where-as
your example means "on the way home".


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Like Home-bound.

I thought that was house-bound. And from where I come from,
that means limited or restricted within one's home. Where-as
your example means "on the way home".

I do think that it comes from, "I'm homeward bound", and people shortened it to "homebound", but I see that if you look at the lyrics for A Thousand Miles by Vanessa Carlton (which I guess I hadn't heard of, but evidently have heard the song), she uses "homebound" in this sense.

But I'm sure Poindexter Fortran uses it in both senses. I'm not sure if I use it _at all_, though I do remember church things, e.g. pastor visitation or caroling, where there was mention of people that were homebound.

But, yeah, I imagine that context is generally fairly clear on whether or not a person is already home.

Still, etymology and linguistics are fun.

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