• Re: 3.5 weeks to being la

    From bex@21:4/141 to Weatherman on Wed Aug 3 19:10:00 2022
    At 7:41 AM on 25 Jul 22, Weatherman said to Boraxman:


    I used to do that 1 hour+ commute each way, and its awful, especially when you have traffic. It's costly too.

    It is all in what you get used to. That is the norm and a small price
    to pay to be away from the crime ridden big city locations. You
    couldn't pay me to live close to any of them. It is a good time to
    listen to some music, enjoy the drive or ride.

    I've gotta go with Boraxman on this one, nothing is worth taking all my time for a long drive into the office and then back home. Fortunately, here in Denver, the city is mellow - crime is mostly low during the work day - and
    the public transportation is fun! I take light rail from the suburb I live
    into LoDo, and walk to the office from there.

    Or at least I used to, I've been working remote for 10 years now.


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  • From Utopian Galt@21:4/108 to Bex on Thu Aug 4 12:35:58 2022
    BY: bex(21:4/141)


    Denver, the city is mellow - crime is mostly low during the work day -
    and
    the public transportation is fun! I take light rail from the suburb I
    live into LoDo, and walk to the office from there.
    I used to take the bus to school 2 hours each way. The funny thing was they implemented the express bus right after I graduated. hahhahaa


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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Utopian Galt on Fri Aug 5 10:07:24 2022
    Denver, the city is mellow - crime is mostly low during the work day - and
    the public transportation is fun! I take light rail from the suburb I live into LoDo, and walk to the office from there.
    I used to take the bus to school 2 hours each way. The funny thing was they implemented the express bus right after I graduated. hahhahaa


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    You really need the town to be designed around public transport and rail for it to work really well. Sadly they are designed around cars.

    I preferred driving to uni than taking 3 buses, but a good rail system beats cars.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to boraxman on Fri Aug 5 07:38:00 2022
    boraxman wrote to Utopian Galt <=-

    I preferred driving to uni than taking 3 buses, but a good rail system beats cars.

    When I commuted into San Francisco, I had a couple of options.

    There is an elevated electric train called BART that runs underneath the
    bay. Skips the traffic, but frequent brealdowns and packed cars.

    I did a casual commute from across the bay. Drivers would pick up 2 passengers, then get to use the free commute lane. Everyone wins. They'd
    drop off at the SF Transbay Terminal, a bus hub that was conveniently 1
    block from my office. I took a bus back home from that terminal that dropped me off a block from home. Cheap, effective, and they started offering wifi.

    Driving could be a nightmare - stop and go traffic in the morning going through the toll booth, and sometimes 45 minutes of bumper to bumper traffic to get onto the bridge.

    The holy grail was the ferry service. Service was limited but ran hourly. I drove to the ferry terminal, then took a bus transfer; they'd let you take
    one bus ride per ticket to get into San Francisco.

    Mornings they had coffee, bagels, and donuts. The evening commute had beer
    and wine. Sitting on the upper deck in the summertime with a drink watching the sun go down under the SF skyline was a highlight.

    You had enough room that you could hunker down and get 40 minutes worth of work done - I arranged with my boss to get out of work an hour early based
    on working on the ferry.


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  • From bex@21:4/141 to Utopian Galt on Sat Aug 6 08:52:00 2022
    At 12:35 AM on 4 Aug 22, Utopian Galt said to Bex:

    the public transportation is fun! I take light rail from the suburb I
    live into LoDo, and walk to the office from there.

    I usBed to take the bus to school 2 hours each way. The funny thing was they implemented the express bus right after I graduated. hahhahaa

    That is bad timing on the transportation district's part! :)



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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Aug 7 12:56:37 2022
    I preferred driving to uni than taking 3 buses, but a good rail syste beats cars.

    When I commuted into San Francisco, I had a couple of options.

    There is an elevated electric train called BART that runs underneath the bay. Skips the traffic, but frequent brealdowns and packed cars.

    I did a casual commute from across the bay. Drivers would pick up 2 passengers, then get to use the free commute lane. Everyone wins. They'd drop off at the SF Transbay Terminal, a bus hub that was conveniently 1 block from my office. I took a bus back home from that terminal that dropped me off a block from home. Cheap, effective, and they started offering wifi.

    Driving could be a nightmare - stop and go traffic in the morning going through the toll booth, and sometimes 45 minutes of bumper to bumper traffic to get onto the bridge.

    The holy grail was the ferry service. Service was limited but ran
    hourly. I drove to the ferry terminal, then took a bus transfer; they'd let you take one bus ride per ticket to get into San Francisco.

    Mornings they had coffee, bagels, and donuts. The evening commute had
    beer and wine. Sitting on the upper deck in the summertime with a drink watching the sun go down under the SF skyline was a highlight.

    You had enough room that you could hunker down and get 40 minutes worth
    of work done - I arranged with my boss to get out of work an hour early based on working on the ferry.




    Sounds pretty sweet, and a pretty good idea here. Making the commute actually part of your working day. We "work from home", so why now have "Work while you commute". So even if you are commuting an hour each way, that hour could part of your working day if you are actually able to get work done. Then when you're there, you can have your physical face to face meetings.

    The set up you described sounds like it could be like that.

    Designing cities so that we are forced to sink literal months and years of our leaves moving back and forth was one of the colossally stupid mistakes of human advancements, and we really need to push and say that it is NOT ACCEPTABLE to design cities in such a way that we are forced to do this. And I say forced because we often don't have the means or option to live near where we work.

    Henry Ford is burning in hell for making the automobile a 'mass consumer' product. He did to transportation what Bill Gates did to computing, ruined it.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to boraxman on Sun Aug 7 07:51:00 2022
    boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Sounds pretty sweet, and a pretty good idea here. Making the commute actually part of your working day. We "work from home", so why now
    have "Work while you commute". So even if you are commuting an hour
    each way, that hour could part of your working day if you are actually able to get work done. Then when you're there, you can have your
    physical face to face meetings.

    A friend of mine justifies his self-driving Tesla that way - he owns a
    company and drives 1 1/2 hours each way occasionally to the office.

    He was pulled over using a cell phone while the car was driving and
    cautioned that he needed to have the phone mounted on the dash, even if the car was driving. :)

    You could look at it as saving your hourly rate's worth of salary, or the opportunity cost of being able to make dinner with your kids, spend time outdoors with your partner, etc.

    My current gig is going all remote, I don't know how I'll feel when this gig runs its course and I have to drive in again.


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to boraxman on Mon Aug 8 05:58:00 2022
    Designing cities so that we are forced to sink literal months and years of our leaves moving back and forth was one of the colossally stupid mistakes

    I don't think that was done with either design or intent. Its called urban sprawl. Until very recently we've (Australia) haven't been good at higher density living. Every man and dog wanted his own home on a quarter acre
    block, that and ongoing land releases at the fringes by the peanuts in charge have gotten us to where we are now.

    Spec


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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 8 22:32:01 2022
    Sounds pretty sweet, and a pretty good idea here. Making the commute actually part of your working day. We "work from home", so why now have "Work while you commute". So even if you are commuting an hour each way, that hour could part of your working day if you are actuall able to get work done. Then when you're there, you can have your physical face to face meetings.

    A friend of mine justifies his self-driving Tesla that way - he owns a company and drives 1 1/2 hours each way occasionally to the office.

    He was pulled over using a cell phone while the car was driving and cautioned that he needed to have the phone mounted on the dash, even if the car was driving. :)

    You could look at it as saving your hourly rate's worth of salary, or
    the opportunity cost of being able to make dinner with your kids, spend time outdoors with your partner, etc.

    My current gig is going all remote, I don't know how I'll feel when this gig runs its course and I have to drive in again.



    You can always find a way to make more money, much more, but your time on this Earth is more or less fixed. There is only so long you will have.

    Time therefore is more valuable than money, much more valuable. Lost dollars can be recouped, lost time cannot.

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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Spectre on Mon Aug 8 22:36:58 2022
    Designing cities so that we are forced to sink literal months and yea our leaves moving back and forth was one of the colossally stupid mis

    I don't think that was done with either design or intent. Its called urban sprawl. Until very recently we've (Australia) haven't been good
    at higher density living. Every man and dog wanted his own home on a quarter acre block, that and ongoing land releases at the fringes by the peanuts in charge have gotten us to where we are now.

    Spec

    It nevertheless did happen. Houses are built with roads, but lack public transport. Somewhere in the planning is the assumption that the car will be the first, the primary mode of transport and anything else a bonus. Every new suburb assumes use of a car. Some of these new surburbs don't even really cater to pedestrians.

    Urban sprawl itself was made possible only because the car became ubiquitous, the "suburban" mode of transport.

    The suburban ideal was a manufactured want, a Post War design, a promise of escape from what was then dysfunctional urban areas. Things are changing where some younger people are eschewing the surburban "dream" for a more urban lifestyle, close to cafes and bars and culture and entertainment.

    Then you have many European towns which were designed around a pedestrian life, more human friendly.

    I did was the suburban dream when I was younger, but it is in reality a nightmare.

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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to boraxman on Mon Aug 8 22:56:00 2022
    It nevertheless did happen. Houses are built with roads, but lack public transport. Somewhere in the planning is the assumption that the car will be the first, the primary mode of transport and anything else a bonus.

    Sure but its still sprawl and poor or no planning. Developers are only expected to provide roads. The Chief Peanut has to provide public transport its beyong the legal remit of any developer.

    There was complaints recently about a development somewhere west of the city, that the railway line on the plan and the primary school never arrived. But
    the developer can't influence when the government will ever get a round-tuit
    or if they ever will at all.

    Spec


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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 8 10:25:32 2022
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to boraxman <=-

    He was pulled over using a cell phone while the car was driving and cautioned that he needed to have the phone mounted on the dash, even if the car was driving. :)

    Even with the self-driving cars, you do have to pay attention just in case
    you need to overide a decision it has made?

    I thought there had been some accidents recently because people mistook the self-driving cars as being completely autonomous so they didn't react when
    the car also didn't react.

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  • From esc@21:4/173 to Blue White on Mon Aug 8 12:07:30 2022
    Even with the self-driving cars, you do have to pay attention just in
    case you need to overide a decision it has made?

    In the industry these are called "disengagements". In an ideal world, each of these events are studied and understood, and findings are used to refine the autonomy stack. I can't speak to how well every company does this, however.

    The interesting thing about autonomy is that industry knows it's a foregone conclusion that we're headed that way, but consumers actually fear the tech so there is no consumer driven market push to get this tech developed. So in a sense it is in a very weird spot. Additionally, every company goes about autonomy in a different way...for example, Tesla /only/ uses cameras, which seems to be working pretty well for them, however I don't think I would feel comfortable with actual "autonomy" unless there were additional on-vehicle sensors like LIDAR.

    The truly odd thing about the industry and autonomy is that companies are competing to have the best autonomous platform, however I'm of the opinion that proper autonomy should be a universal endeavor since safe on-road experience means everyone wins. I don't think we would ever go the collective development route without government interference, though.

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  • From vorlon@21:1/195.1 to Blue White on Tue Aug 9 11:34:07 2022
    Hi Blue White,

    Even with the self-driving cars, you do have to pay attention just in
    case you need to overide a decision it has made?

    That's the problem. People are not paying attention, and behaving as if
    we have fully safe self driving cars. We are a long way from that, and
    they really need to stop thinking we have gone full SCI-FI with it right
    now.



    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to boraxman on Tue Aug 9 20:06:00 2022
    On 08-08-22 22:36, boraxman wrote to Spectre <=-

    Then you have many European towns which were designed around a
    pedestrian life, more human friendly.

    I think human friendly designs that work for pedestrians and cyclists would be more liveable, with good public transport (bicycle friendly!) for longer trips.

    I did was the suburban dream when I was younger, but it is in reality a nightmare.

    Being ina smaller regional city, we can (for now) get asway with it, and I'm hoping to be able to use an ebike for most of my trips around town. Out here, cars are very useful for longer trips out of town - with a lot of rural destinations around, can't avoid the car, but within most of the urban limits, I'd like to be able to use an ebike.


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Spectre on Tue Aug 9 20:09:00 2022
    On 08-08-22 22:56, Spectre wrote to boraxman <=-

    It nevertheless did happen. Houses are built with roads, but lack public transport. Somewhere in the planning is the assumption that the car will be the first, the primary mode of transport and anything else a bonus.

    Sure but its still sprawl and poor or no planning. Developers are only expected to provide roads. The Chief Peanut has to provide public transport its beyong the legal remit of any developer.

    Yeah still poor planning, I agree. At least the new estate I'm in already has a bus stop at the end of the street (probably 200m walk at most) on an existing bus route that leads both to central Bendigo and Eaglehawk - a major suburb on the north side of town.

    There was complaints recently about a development somewhere west of the city, that the railway line on the plan and the primary school never arrived. But the developer can't influence when the government will
    ever get a round-tuit or if they ever will at all.

    That sucks. And of course, Melbourne Airport has been waiting 50 years for a train and counting...


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Blue White on Tue Aug 9 20:10:00 2022
    On 08-08-22 10:25, Blue White wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I thought there had been some accidents recently because people mistook the self-driving cars as being completely autonomous so they didn't
    react when the car also didn't react.

    Hmm, I think I'd rather remain in control - the autopilot of my subconscious is far more integrated than any car based system could be. :)


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to esc on Tue Aug 9 20:20:00 2022
    On 08-08-22 12:07, esc wrote to Blue White <=-

    Even with the self-driving cars, you do have to pay attention just in
    case you need to overide a decision it has made?

    In the industry these are called "disengagements". In an ideal world,
    each of these events are studied and understood, and findings are used
    to refine the autonomy stack. I can't speak to how well every company
    does this, however.

    That would be ideal, and also refine the way the system falls back to manual control, so the driver is properly kept in the loop and can take over when needed. I'm not against automation, but I have noticed on some newer cars that I've driven that the car wasn't good at informing me about what it's doing - are the headlights on? fog lights? etc.

    Because my own brain's tracking of the car's state is based on a model, I need all possible information about the state of the vehicle, so I can take that into account. I have the same issue with people too, like those who move things with telling me - I keep track of a surprising amount of state variables in my head. :)

    The interesting thing about autonomy is that industry knows it's a foregone conclusion that we're headed that way, but consumers actually fear the tech so there is no consumer driven market push to get this
    tech developed. So in a sense it is in a very weird spot. Additionally, every company goes about autonomy in a different way...for example,
    Tesla /only/ uses cameras, which seems to be working pretty well for
    them, however I don't think I would feel comfortable with actual "autonomy" unless there were additional on-vehicle sensors like LIDAR.

    I think a combination od approaches is best - cameras, LIDAR, RADAR (there's millimetre bands allocated to automotive purposes)

    The truly odd thing about the industry and autonomy is that companies
    are competing to have the best autonomous platform, however I'm of the opinion that proper autonomy should be a universal endeavor since safe on-road experience means everyone wins. I don't think we would ever go
    the collective development route without government interference,
    though.

    One would think having a standard platform across infrastructure to base automation on would make sense. Let's see where this ends up.


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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Spectre on Tue Aug 9 23:41:39 2022
    Sure but its still sprawl and poor or no planning. Developers are only expected to provide roads. The Chief Peanut has to provide public transport its beyong the legal remit of any developer.

    There was complaints recently about a development somewhere west of the city, that the railway line on the plan and the primary school never arrived. But the developer can't influence when the government will ever get a round-tuit or if they ever will at all.

    Spec

    I think I know where you are talking about. Allowing individual developers to design things is a bit naff. I don't get why they allow developers to tear down single dwellings to build multiple units. Suburban design by lots of disparate investors? No wonder the results are awful.

    I looked at buying a house in the West, and was in the display showroom. I asked why there were some primary schools, but no secondary school anywhere. The nearest one was quite some distance away in an established suburb. She said one will come and be built, and I looked down at the model of the suburb and said "can you show me where they would fit this in?" and she just went "ummmmm" and that was that.

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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 9 23:47:41 2022
    Then you have many European towns which were designed around a pedestrian life, more human friendly.

    I think human friendly designs that work for pedestrians and cyclists would be more liveable, with good public transport (bicycle friendly!)
    for longer trips.


    We've gotten so used to cars and roads, we don't realise how much they have taken away from us. Right in front of our house, are rivers of black which are too dangerous for children to be near or on, and we are stuck to walking the edges, having to carefully navigate our way across them to access our neighbours. The cars drone day and night, and in some cases, the rivers are so large and wide that those across as are barely accessible.

    Walking some European cities, like the centre of Amsterdam is a delight. People can walk freely, mingle, socialise and meander at will. The car in these spaces, if it is there, is a second class citizen. These areas are for US, people, humans. Car based cities by comparison seem hostile, inhuman, we are guests there, barely belonging.

    I did was the suburban dream when I was younger, but it is in reality nightmare.

    Being ina smaller regional city, we can (for now) get asway with it, and I'm hoping to be able to use an ebike for most of my trips around town. Out here, cars are very useful for longer trips out of town - with a lot of rural destinations around, can't avoid the car, but within most of
    the urban limits, I'd like to be able to use an ebike.



    I've been tempted to make the move to a smaller town, but alas it is difficult in my profession. I cannot really work from home, and the places I can work are in the big smoke.

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  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to boraxman on Tue Aug 9 08:04:00 2022
    Hello boraxman!

    ** On Tuesday 09.08.22 - 23:47, boraxman wrote to Vk3jed:

    We've gotten so used to cars and roads, we don't realise
    how much they have taken away from us. Right in front of
    our house, are rivers of black which are too dangerous for
    children to be near or on [...]

    Walking some European cities, like the centre of Amsterdam is a delight [...]

    I've been tempted to make the move to a smaller town, but
    alas it is difficult in my profession. I cannot really
    work from home, and the places I can work are in the big
    smoke.

    Ironically, should you settle in a smaller town, you WILL need
    to rely on a decent mode of transportation for anything
    remotely important - like shopping, hospital, etc.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to boraxman on Mon Aug 8 08:15:00 2022
    boraxman wrote to Spectre <=-

    The suburban ideal was a manufactured want, a Post War design, a
    promise of escape from what was then dysfunctional urban areas. Things are changing where some younger people are eschewing the surburban
    "dream" for a more urban lifestyle, close to cafes and bars and culture and entertainment.

    Or, in California, they're moving out to previously unavailable areas
    farther from urban areas - because they're working remotely now.

    Bakersfield, once a town that people scoffed at, is apparently now becoming
    a thing. You could get a house with a nice lot for the price of a San Francisco condo, and still commute in 1 day a week if you needed to.

    I think the trick is finding those little towns that have decent internet.


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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to esc on Tue Aug 9 16:00:30 2022
    esc wrote to Blue White <=-

    The truly odd thing about the industry and autonomy is that companies
    are competing to have the best autonomous platform, however I'm of the opinion that proper autonomy should be a universal endeavor since safe on-road experience means everyone wins. I don't think we would ever go
    the collective development route without government interference,
    though.

    I agree. Having two machines that are not using compatable autonomy
    systems that are heading for each other does not sound too safe. It would
    be good if they could communicate with each other to mutually prevent the issue, rather than having each one making decisions that the other would
    not be aware of.


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  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 9 16:01:22 2022
    Vk3jed wrote to Blue White <=-

    On 08-08-22 10:25, Blue White wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    I thought there had been some accidents recently because people mistook the self-driving cars as being completely autonomous so they didn't
    react when the car also didn't react.

    Hmm, I think I'd rather remain in control - the autopilot of my subconscious is far more integrated than any car based system could be.
    :)

    I don't see one in my future, either, until that is the only thing
    available. :)


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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 9 18:44:42 2022
    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: Vk3jed to boraxman on Tue Aug 09 2022 08:06 pm

    I think human friendly designs that work for pedestrians and cyclists would more liveable, with good public transport (bicycle friendly!) for longer tri


    Villager guy here.

    Every time they use buzzwords (such as human friendlyness or pedestrian friendlyness) to justify changes in urban management, they end up doing something that manages to both make the city less industry friendly and less inhabitant friendly.

    At the same time. It is deserving of merit, it really is.

    There is a big problem that Urban Administrators don't understand, and that is that when you take something away from the population, you need to provide them with an alternative. If you remove cars from a neighbourhood because you want it to be for pedestrians only, you need to supply them with new means to move. Otherwise you get aberrant behaviors, such as car traffic being banned in certain areas, and people having to walk from a faraway parking to their jobs through crime ridden areas.

    The war on cars is irrelevant, anyway. Soon, affordable energy will be a thing of the past and we will be back at using bulls and charts for moving from a village to the next XD

    I am very happy of being a rural redneck.


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Blue White on Wed Aug 10 18:11:00 2022
    I agree. Having two machines that are not using compatable autonomy systems that are heading for each other does not sound too safe. It would be good if they could communicate with each other to mutually prevent the issue, rather than having each one making decisions that the other would not be aware of.

    Need something like IFF for cars, although you wouldn't be expecting to many foes on the road. :) Probably over time, they'll settle into an accepted set of manouvers to allow everything to get out of each others way.

    Spec


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to boraxman on Wed Aug 10 19:17:00 2022
    On 08-09-22 23:47, boraxman wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    We've gotten so used to cars and roads, we don't realise how much they have taken away from us. Right in front of our house, are rivers of
    black which are too dangerous for children to be near or on, and we are stuck to walking the edges, having to carefully navigate our way across them to access our neighbours. The cars drone day and night, and in
    some cases, the rivers are so large and wide that those across as are barely accessible.

    It's particularly obvious in major shopping centres. Ever notice how hostile many are to pedestrians, leaving them to run the gauntlet in car parks or at entrances?

    Walking some European cities, like the centre of Amsterdam is a
    delight. People can walk freely, mingle, socialise and meander at will.
    The car in these spaces, if it is there, is a second class citizen.
    These areas are for US, people, humans. Car based cities by comparison seem hostile, inhuman, we are guests there, barely belonging.

    Those European cities sound totally delightful places. :)

    I've been tempted to make the move to a smaller town, but alas it is difficult in my profession. I cannot really work from home, and the places I can work are in the big smoke.

    When we moved, I was working remotely anyway, so no big deal.


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Blue White on Wed Aug 10 19:20:00 2022
    On 08-09-22 16:01, Blue White wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I don't see one in my future, either, until that is the only thing available. :)

    Even that probably won't stop me flying without the autopilot. :D


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Arelor on Wed Aug 10 19:38:00 2022
    On 08-09-22 18:44, Arelor wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    There is a big problem that Urban Administrators don't understand, and that is that when you take something away from the population, you need
    to provide them with an alternative. If you remove cars from a neighbourhood because you want it to be for pedestrians only, you need
    to supply them with new means to move. Otherwise you get aberrant behaviors, such as car traffic being banned in certain areas, and
    people having to walk from a faraway parking to their jobs through
    crime ridden areas.

    I think the issue is that car dependence is embedded at all levels - not just local streets, but also in terms of long commutes and a host of other things. For many shorter trips, bicycles are useful, ebikes even more so (even with the silly restrictions we have here). In short, there's no easy solutions, it's got to the point that it will involve massive social change, along with massive infrastructure changes.

    The war on cars is irrelevant, anyway. Soon, affordable energy will be
    a thing of the past and we will be back at using bulls and charts for moving from a village to the next XD

    Or an ebike :D I'm already planning on reducing my car dependence. Out here it's impractical to elimate that, but I can dramatically reduce car use from the current 150km/week or so to a much lower figure, without having to cut out any activities.

    I am very happy of being a rural redneck.

    I'm happy being in a middle of the road sized city. :)



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  • From Capt Kirk@21:4/10 to boraxman on Wed Aug 10 18:42:25 2022
    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: boraxman to Utopian Galt on Fri Aug 05 2022 10:07:24

    Denver, the city is mellow - crime is mostly low during the work day and
    the public transportation is fun! I take light rail from the suburb live into LoDo, and walk to the office from there.
    I used to take the bus to school 2 hours each way. The funny thing was they implemented the express bus right after I graduated. hahhahaa


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    You really need the town to be designed around public transport and rail for to work really well. Sadly they are designed around cars.

    I preferred driving to uni than taking 3 buses, but a good rail system beats cars.

    the U.S. is designed around the automobile, where Europe is designed around public transport.. if the transit system was at least 200% better here, and easier to take i'd opt for that..

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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Ogg on Thu Aug 11 23:10:44 2022
    We've gotten so used to cars and roads, we don't realise
    how much they have taken away from us. Right in front of
    our house, are rivers of black which are too dangerous for
    children to be near or on [...]

    Walking some European cities, like the centre of Amsterdam is a deligh [...]

    I've been tempted to make the move to a smaller town, but
    alas it is difficult in my profession. I cannot really
    work from home, and the places I can work are in the big
    smoke.

    Ironically, should you settle in a smaller town, you WILL need
    to rely on a decent mode of transportation for anything
    remotely important - like shopping, hospital, etc.


    That is the irony here, smaller towns have proportionally less transit. The small European cities are what I like, or the small villages.

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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Aug 11 23:17:21 2022
    The suburban ideal was a manufactured want, a Post War design, a promise of escape from what was then dysfunctional urban areas. Thin are changing where some younger people are eschewing the surburban "dream" for a more urban lifestyle, close to cafes and bars and cultu and entertainment.

    Or, in California, they're moving out to previously unavailable areas farther from urban areas - because they're working remotely now.

    Bakersfield, once a town that people scoffed at, is apparently now becoming a thing. You could get a house with a nice lot for the price
    of a San Francisco condo, and still commute in 1 day a week if you
    needed to.

    I think the trick is finding those little towns that have decent
    internet.


    In Australia, or at least the part I live in, this kind of move seems less popular. Some people are moving to regional areas but we don't move as much as people in the USA do. Some nearby towns have become "trendy" but those near Melbourne don't seem all that appealing.

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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 11 23:31:31 2022
    We've gotten so used to cars and roads, we don't realise how much the have taken away from us. Right in front of our house, are rivers of black which are too dangerous for children to be near or on, and we a stuck to walking the edges, having to carefully navigate our way acro them to access our neighbours. The cars drone day and night, and in some cases, the rivers are so large and wide that those across as are barely accessible.

    It's particularly obvious in major shopping centres. Ever notice how hostile many are to pedestrians, leaving them to run the gauntlet in car parks or at entrances?

    Indeed I have. A new centre near where I live has a large carpark out the front of the entrance, which you have to walk along the carpark to get it. There really isn't any good way to get into it from the road. It looks like a massive box in the middle of the carpark. There really isn't anywhere for people to congregate which isn't by cars.

    I compare this to the old Moonee Ponds Market, which fronted a street, and the carpark was on the other side of the main road. There were more accessways to it. The place wasn't an island in the middle of a car park and it was integrated with the surrounding urban area. The new one near my place is in the middle of nowhere. There is nothing across the road, nothing nearby, detached from everything else.


    Walking some European cities, like the centre of Amsterdam is a delight. People can walk freely, mingle, socialise and meander at wil
    The car in these spaces, if it is there, is a second class citizen. These areas are for US, people, humans. Car based cities by comparis seem hostile, inhuman, we are guests there, barely belonging.

    Those European cities sound totally delightful places. :)

    I've been tempted to make the move to a smaller town, but alas it is difficult in my profession. I cannot really work from home, and the places I can work are in the big smoke.

    When we moved, I was working remotely anyway, so no big deal.


    One design I liked, was having a town square which was pedestrian only. Shops and restaurants would front the square, and the roads may be behind the shops. This created an enclosed space free of cars.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vk3jed on Tue Aug 9 12:09:00 2022
    Vk3jed wrote to Spectre <=-

    That sucks. And of course, Melbourne Airport has been waiting 50 years for a train and counting...

    I was so impressed that the London underground wraps right in and out of Heathrow airport. It makes getting in and out of the town easy.

    Oakland missed out on the opportunity to run BART, a multi-county elevated electric train system, into their airport. When they finally built a shuttle system to get people from the nearest BART station to the airport, they freaked out when they realized that people would park at a BART station and leave their cars overnight for free.

    Not well thought out.




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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 11 07:36:00 2022
    Vk3jed wrote to boraxman <=-

    It's particularly obvious in major shopping centres. Ever notice how hostile many are to pedestrians, leaving them to run the gauntlet in
    car parks or at entrances?


    They're too busy walking while looking down at their phones. I worked for a large internet company, and their parking lot didn't have dedicated
    pedestrian areas. You had to walk behind the cars in the lanes to get to
    work.

    More times than I could count, someone was walking in traffic, not paying attention, not hearing my car on electric and almost walked into my car.

    I'm glad I'd never had that happen, because I'm sure they'd claim I'd hit them, although I was at a dead stop. I would have appreciated a dash cam
    then.


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 11 07:50:00 2022
    Vk3jed wrote to Arelor <=-

    I think the issue is that car dependence is embedded at all levels -
    not just local streets, but also in terms of long commutes and a host
    of other things. For many shorter trips, bicycles are useful, ebikes
    even more so (even with the silly restrictions we have here). In
    short, there's no easy solutions, it's got to the point that it will involve massive social change, along with massive infrastructure
    changes.

    The number of transit systems and plans torn out in the 60s to make way for the auto boom is depressing. In the bay area, there was a rail system that
    ran from San Francisco across the bay to Oakland and the east bay that was torn out partly through the influence of big oil and the automakers.

    They ended up building a similar system years later.

    Or an ebike :D I'm already planning on reducing my car dependence.
    Out here it's impractical to elimate that, but I can dramatically
    reduce car use from the current 150km/week or so to a much lower
    figure, without having to cut out any activities.

    I want a moped to relive my high-school years, but I'd need to lose about a hundred pounds. :)

    There was a group in San Francisco called Moped Army that rodded up mopeds - imagine a 50cc cafe racer "rat bike". Loved seeing them riding in packs through the city (but the noise was deafening, like hundreds of giant mosquitos)


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to Capt Kirk on Thu Aug 11 07:54:00 2022
    Capt Kirk wrote to boraxman <=-

    the U.S. is designed around the automobile, where Europe is designed around public transport.. if the transit system was at least 200%
    better here, and easier to take i'd opt for that..

    I went to school and spent the next 10 years in San Francisco, and I could have done it very nicely without a car. In SF you could get anywhere you needed to go 24/7, they have a nice prime-time metro/trolley system, a region-wide elevated train system, and a traditional train route that runs down the peninsula into Silicon Valley.

    The bus system had a monthly pass that let you get onto any of the rail/bus systems within city limits.

    Want to go across the bay? There's ferry service, which is a beautiful way
    to travel. You'd get a bus transfer for one ride each way.

    Drinking with friends usually involved picking one of the trolley lines and visiting a couple of bars along the route. I, fortuitously, lived at the end of one of the lines, right along the beach.

    I used my car mostly for grocery shopping and dating. And accumulating street-cleaning tickets.


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Aug 12 06:45:00 2022
    They're too busy walking while looking down at their phones. I worked for

    With headphones, walking down the middle of the lane as though they own it,
    or are a car..

    Spec


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to boraxman on Fri Aug 12 19:26:00 2022
    On 08-11-22 23:31, boraxman wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Indeed I have. A new centre near where I live has a large carpark out
    the front of the entrance, which you have to walk along the carpark to
    get it. There really isn't any good way to get into it from the road.
    It looks like a massive box in the middle of the carpark. There really isn't anywhere for people to congregate which isn't by cars.

    Yep, that seems to be the norm for major shopping malls.

    I compare this to the old Moonee Ponds Market, which fronted a street,
    and the carpark was on the other side of the main road. There were
    more accessways to it. The place wasn't an island in the middle of a
    car park and it was integrated with the surrounding urban area. The
    new one near my place is in the middle of nowhere. There is nothing across the road, nothing nearby, detached from everything else.

    Strip centres in general are better, some parking in the street, and the major car parks tend to be behind the shops with either rear access or walk along the street. Pedestrians simply walk along the street (maybe after getting off public transport) and into the shop of their choice.

    When we moved, I was working remotely anyway, so no big deal.


    One design I liked, was having a town square which was pedestrian only.
    Shops and restaurants would front the square, and the roads may be
    behind the shops. This created an enclosed space free of cars.

    I have seen places like that, or if there is a road, it's only for emergency and essential service vehicles, not general traffic.


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Aug 12 19:29:00 2022
    On 08-09-22 12:09, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Vk3jed wrote to Spectre <=-

    That sucks. And of course, Melbourne Airport has been waiting 50 years for a train and counting...

    I was so impressed that the London underground wraps right in and out
    of Heathrow airport. It makes getting in and out of the town easy.

    Sydney airport has a good underground train service, and Brisbane has an elevated railway into its airport. I believe Perth now has a train (there was talk of it when I was there in 2018).

    Oakland missed out on the opportunity to run BART, a multi-county
    elevated electric train system, into their airport. When they finally built a shuttle system to get people from the nearest BART station to
    the airport, they freaked out when they realized that people would park
    at a BART station and leave their cars overnight for free.

    I'm not sure I'd leave my car at a train station for several days - I'd normally take public transport to the airport anyway.

    Not well thought out.

    Haha :D



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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Aug 12 19:32:00 2022
    On 08-11-22 07:36, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    They're too busy walking while looking down at their phones. I worked
    for a large internet company, and their parking lot didn't have
    dedicated pedestrian areas. You had to walk behind the cars in the
    lanes to get to work.

    That doesn't help an already poor design.

    More times than I could count, someone was walking in traffic, not
    paying attention, not hearing my car on electric and almost walked into
    my car.

    I'm glad I'd never had that happen, because I'm sure they'd claim I'd
    hit them, although I was at a dead stop. I would have appreciated a
    dash cam then.

    Yeah, you'd probably be at fault without dashcam evidence. And electric/hybrid cars do increase the rish, because they're silent.


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Aug 12 19:36:00 2022
    On 08-11-22 07:50, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The number of transit systems and plans torn out in the 60s to make way for the auto boom is depressing. In the bay area, there was a rail
    system that ran from San Francisco across the bay to Oakland and the
    east bay that was torn out partly through the influence of big oil and
    the automakers.

    Yeah, some cities put up some resistance. Melbourne kept its extensive tram network, due to public support for it. This has proven to be a big plus for the city (after being a tourist drawcard for decades). Today, other cities are rebuilding their tram networks. Meanwhile, Melbourne simply updated its tram fleet over the years.

    They ended up building a similar system years later.

    Similar stories over here.

    I want a moped to relive my high-school years, but I'd need to lose
    about a hundred pounds. :)

    Oh dear. I'm only about 20 pounds heavier than I was at the end of high school, and it's almost all muscle. :D



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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to boraxman on Fri Aug 12 20:12:00 2022
    On 08-11-22 23:17, boraxman wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    In Australia, or at least the part I live in, this kind of move seems
    less popular. Some people are moving to regional areas but we don't
    move as much as people in the USA do. Some nearby towns have become "trendy" but those near Melbourne don't seem all that appealing.

    Come out here to Bendigo then. COVID accelerated a pre-existing trend of tree changers moving out here (guilty as charged, we arrived in 2010). But these days, try getting a rental or buying a house. The market is tight. At one stage, houses literally sold within hours of being listed, if not before, and when we bought our land, we just had to jump on the first block we could, because any hesitation and they sold.


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Aug 12 20:21:00 2022
    On 08-11-22 07:54, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Capt Kirk <=-

    I went to school and spent the next 10 years in San Francisco, and I
    could have done it very nicely without a car. In SF you could get
    anywhere you needed to go 24/7, they have a nice prime-time
    metro/trolley system, a region-wide elevated train system, and a traditional train route that runs down the peninsula into Silicon
    Valley.

    SF would be an exception, also New Yourk City? I know both of those cities have a good train network, and SF has the trolley cars as well.

    I know people living in inner parts of Melbourne who lived without cars, because the tram network provided local transport needs for going out and shopping. Trains would get you to many of the major suburbs (and the tram network a whole bunch more), with regional trains to major towns and cities outside Melbourne.

    However, live in the middle or outer suburbs of Melbourne, and a car rapidly becomes a necessity.

    Here, it's a small city of just over 100k people. Most trips are within bicycle range, but the terrain makes electric assistance a better option, which will work for local trips. Melbourne can be reached by train in just under 2 hours, most other destinations require a car, but I don't need to leave town too frequently.

    Drinking with friends usually involved picking one of the trolley lines and visiting a couple of bars along the route. I, fortuitously, lived
    at the end of one of the lines, right along the beach.

    Trolley cars/trams that run along the street tend to lead to long shopping strips, which are fairly accessible.



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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Aug 12 23:57:31 2022
    The number of transit systems and plans torn out in the 60s to make way for the auto boom is depressing. In the bay area, there was a rail
    system that ran from San Francisco across the bay to Oakland and the
    east bay that was torn out partly through the influence of big oil and the automakers.


    The 1950's and 1960's was really a bad period in terms of urban design and planning. A lot of things in that era were done wrong, mistakes we are living with today.

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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 13 00:05:39 2022
    Yep, that seems to be the norm for major shopping malls.

    I compare this to the old Moonee Ponds Market, which fronted a street and the carpark was on the other side of the main road. There were more accessways to it. The place wasn't an island in the middle of a car park and it was integrated with the surrounding urban area. The new one near my place is in the middle of nowhere. There is nothing across the road, nothing nearby, detached from everything else.

    Strip centres in general are better, some parking in the street, and the major car parks tend to be behind the shops with either rear access or walk along the street. Pedestrians simply walk along the street (maybe after getting off public transport) and into the shop of their choice.


    They do work better, as do "malls" between two roads or streets, though neither of these are really places for people to linger. Ballarat has a nice mall, I can't remember the name, but its near Bakery Hill. Wide, no cars, quiet, parking nearby.

    I have seen places like that, or if there is a road, it's only for emergency and essential service vehicles, not general traffic.


    I used to live on a block where the middle of the block (it was a large block) was a relatively large piece of grassland with a kids park in the middle. A few blocks in this suburb was like this. I always though that instead of having the houses face the streets, they should face the interior of the block, the grassland, with the street being at the "back" of the house. That way, everyones front yard opens on to this grassland. Every house then faces a courtyard of sorts, but the streets you use to access them aren't a pointless cul-de-sac. It was a nice idea, to have these open areas, but having at the back of the houses, and not having them well maintained meant it was a lost opportunity.

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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 13 00:09:42 2022
    Come out here to Bendigo then. COVID accelerated a pre-existing trend
    of tree changers moving out here (guilty as charged, we arrived in
    2010). But these days, try getting a rental or buying a house. The market is tight. At one stage, houses literally sold within hours of being listed, if not before, and when we bought our land, we just had to jump on the first block we could, because any hesitation and they sold.



    I don't mind Bendigo, though with a tight housing market, the incentive isn't there. My wife and I have discussed moving, but for the price of housing here in Australia, we may as well look overseas.

    Is the All You Can Eat Pizza Hut still there?

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  • From Utopian Galt@21:4/108 to Boraxman on Fri Aug 12 10:53:06 2022
    BORAXMAN(21:1/101) wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-
    The 1950's and 1960's was really a bad period in terms of urban design
    and planning. A lot of things in that era were done wrong, mistakes we are living with today.
    And its going to cost SOOOO much money to correct the mistakes.


    ... "Spam, spam, spam, spam, baked beans and spam."
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52


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  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to boraxman on Sat Aug 13 08:06:00 2022
    Is the All You Can Eat Pizza Hut still there?

    Are there any Pizza Huts anywhere? I thought they had joined the dodo. :)

    Spec


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to boraxman on Sat Aug 13 10:58:00 2022
    On 08-13-22 00:05, boraxman wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    Strip centres in general are better, some parking in the street, and the major car parks tend to be behind the shops with either rear access or walk along the street. Pedestrians simply walk along the street (maybe after getting off public transport) and into the shop of their choice.


    They do work better, as do "malls" between two roads or streets, though neither of these are really places for people to linger. Ballarat has
    a nice mall, I can't remember the name, but its near Bakery Hill.
    Wide, no cars, quiet, parking nearby.

    I'm not familiar with that mall.

    I used to live on a block where the middle of the block (it was a large block) was a relatively large piece of grassland with a kids park in
    the middle. A few blocks in this suburb was like this. I always
    though that instead of having the houses face the streets, they should face the interior of the block, the grassland, with the street being at the "back" of the house. That way, everyones front yard opens on to
    this grassland. Every house then faces a courtyard of sorts, but the streets you use to access them aren't a pointless cul-de-sac. It was a nice idea, to have these open areas, but having at the back of the
    houses, and not having them well maintained meant it was a lost opportunity.

    It's a shame that it wasn't utilised as well as it could have been, because those enclosed courtyards encourage residents, especially those with kids, to mingle in a safe space.


    ... I was abducted by aliens and all I got was this lousy implant.
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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to boraxman on Sat Aug 13 11:01:00 2022
    On 08-13-22 00:09, boraxman wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I don't mind Bendigo, though with a tight housing market, the incentive isn't there. My wife and I have discussed moving, but for the price of housing here in Australia, we may as well look overseas.

    Yeah, housing is a real issue here, and I can't see that changing for a while. :(Where we're building is a whole new estate that's sprung up this year.

    Is the All You Can Eat Pizza Hut still there?

    No idea, I rarely go to Pizza Hut (has been years, literally).


    ... Cut a vital connection
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  • From TassieBob@21:3/169 to boraxman on Sat Aug 13 18:01:50 2022

    Is the All You Can Eat Pizza Hut still there?

    It is down here in Hobart - we have one lonely remaining Pizza Hut store...


    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20220504
    * Origin: TassieBob's BBS (21:3/169)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Spectre on Sat Aug 13 21:13:00 2022
    Are there any Pizza Huts anywhere? I thought they had joined the dodo. :)

    Spec

    There are some still around. There were eat in Pizza Hut stores which had "All you can eat". There was one in Melbourne CBD, but the last two I know if were in Bendigo and Ballarat. It's been years since I've been to the Bendigo one, so I'm not sure if it is there or not, but the Ballarat one is still going, or at least it was a couple of months ago.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Vk3jed on Sat Aug 13 21:16:45 2022
    They do work better, as do "malls" between two roads or streets, thou neither of these are really places for people to linger. Ballarat ha a nice mall, I can't remember the name, but its near Bakery Hill. Wide, no cars, quiet, parking nearby.

    I'm not familiar with that mall.


    I don't know the name of it, but I know its near a Woolworths on the Baker Hill side of the town centre.

    I used to live on a block where the middle of the block (it was a lar block) was a relatively large piece of grassland with a kids park in the middle. A few blocks in this suburb was like this. I always though that instead of having the houses face the streets, they shoul face the interior of the block, the grassland, with the street being the "back" of the house. That way, everyones front yard opens on to this grassland. Every house then faces a courtyard of sorts, but th streets you use to access them aren't a pointless cul-de-sac. It was nice idea, to have these open areas, but having at the back of the houses, and not having them well maintained meant it was a lost opportunity.

    It's a shame that it wasn't utilised as well as it could have been, because those enclosed courtyards encourage residents, especially those with kids, to mingle in a safe space.



    The person who came up with the idea probably had grand ideas of how it would be used, but when it came to be built, they just built larger blocks, and left the bit between the houses (which behind my old place was large, enough to fit another 10-20 houses in) just empty grassland. There were also larger nature strips, I'm not sure why.

    It could have been an opportunity for novel design, for something different, but in the end it just became the standard surburban design but with empty spaces.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From vorlon@21:1/195.1 to boraxman on Sat Aug 13 21:41:12 2022
    Hi Boxraxman,

    Ballarat has a nice mall, I can't remember the name, but its near
    Bakery Hill. Wide, no cars, quiet, parking nearby.

    It's called "The Bridge Mall", and is about to get turned back into a one
    way street. 1 out of 3 shop's in it are vacant....

    Of all the money spent on it, more is going to be waisted "re developing"
    it back into a street with shops on either side....



    \/orlon
    aka
    Stephen


    --- Talisman v0.43-dev (Linux/m68k)
    * Origin: Vorlon Empire: Amiga 3000 powered in Sector 550 (21:1/195.1)
  • From Nightfox to Spectre on Sat Aug 13 09:15:03 2022
    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: Spectre to boraxman on Sat Aug 13 2022 08:06 am

    Are there any Pizza Huts anywhere? I thought they had joined the dodo. :)

    There are a lot of them in my area.. I didn't think they had gone anywhere.

    Nightfox
  • From Irish_Monk@21:4/184 to Nightfox on Sat Aug 13 14:49:29 2022
    There are a lot of them in my area.. I didn't think they had gone anywhere.

    Yeah, I think we still have Pizza Huts around too. Dont use them that much, but now that I think about it, the last time I was in Target they have a little Pizza Hut counter in there. I dont usually get the pizza but I always have time for a few of their Bread Sticks.. Cant beat em'!

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Tech support is just a busy signal away

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/15 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: WarpeD SocieTy (21:4/184)
  • From fusion@21:1/616 to Irish_Monk on Sat Aug 13 15:44:29 2022
    On 13 Aug 2022, Irish_Monk said the following...

    Yeah, I think we still have Pizza Huts around too. Dont use them that much, but now that I think about it, the last time I was in Target they have a little Pizza Hut counter in there. I dont usually get the pizza
    but I always have time for a few of their Bread Sticks.. Cant beat em'!

    ironically both pizza hut and dominos are way above average nowadays (well, here at least). easily beat out papa johns for me, which would have been the winner a few years back before pizza hut and dominos got their s together.

    i don't think they make any money. pizza hut here has to sell wings or they'd go under. lucky for them those are fairly decent.

    ... I know a good tagline when I steal one!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/25 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: cold fusion - cfbbs.net - grand rapids, mi (21:1/616)
  • From Irish_Monk@21:4/184 to fusion on Sat Aug 13 17:12:42 2022
    ironically both pizza hut and dominos are way above average nowadays

    We like Dominoes. And as far as Papa Johns goes, Havnt had them in forever too. But when I was stationed in Maryland for MOS school, Pappa Johns introduced me to Pizza with Garlic dipping sauce, and that was delicious.!

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Confucius say: "Man who runs behind car gets exhausted"

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/15 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: WarpeD SocieTy (21:4/184)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Nightfox on Sat Aug 13 17:26:20 2022
    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: Nightfox to Spectre on Sat Aug 13 2022 09:15 am

    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: Spectre to boraxman on Sat Aug 13 2022 08:06 am

    Are there any Pizza Huts anywhere? I thought they had joined the dodo.

    There are a lot of them in my area.. I didn't think they had gone anywhere.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)

    Pizza Hut used to be very popular in Spain, having Telepizza as its only competitor. Now I think only one remains in Spain.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
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    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Nightfox on Sun Aug 14 13:09:00 2022
    Are there any Pizza Huts anywhere? I thought they had joined the dodo.

    There are a lot of them in my area.. I didn't think they had gone anywhere.

    Woah, wonder where you are, I don't think I've seen one in 30 years....

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
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  • From Warpslide@21:3/110.1 to Spectre on Sun Aug 14 08:07:38 2022
    *** Quoting Spectre from a message to Nightfox ***

    There are a lot of them in my area.. I didn't think they had gone anywhere.

    Woah, wonder where you are, I don't think I've seen one in 30
    years....

    There's a lot of them all over Canada as well. Though in recent years
    they've got to a smaller take-out only form factor instead of the traditional dine-in restaurant. We do still have one dine-in location here in my city though.


    Jay

    ... When your work speaks for itself, don`t interrupt

    --- Telegard v3.09.g2-sp4/mL
    * Origin: Northern Realms | tg.nrbbs.net | 289-424-5180 (21:3/110.1)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Warpslide on Mon Aug 15 09:02:00 2022
    There are a lot of them in my area.. I didn't think they had gone anywhere.

    Woah, wonder where you are, I don't think I've seen one in 30 years....

    There's a lot of them all over Canada as well. Though in recent years they've got to a smaller take-out only form factor instead of the traditional dine-in restaurant. We do still have one dine-in
    location here in my city

    The first thing that fell over here was the restaurants.. I don't recall why exactly, but they changed to the delivery model and that went gang busters
    for a while. Later we had a pizza glut here, mum & dad pizza stores on every corner pretty much, around this time Dominos turned up here too.

    The glut put pressure on pricing, a lot of them eventually shut up shop. As Dominos arrived Pizza Hut held the bulk of the market, and decided Dominos would dry up and blow away. Whatever Dominos did though they eventually took mose of the delivery business too. A couple of years down the track and
    Pizza Hut was pretty much gone in Victoria.

    There's more around than I realised, to be honest I have no idea where they might be hiding, I would stick by not having seen one in 30 years.

    Spec


    *** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
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  • From TassieBob@21:3/169 to Spectre on Mon Aug 15 20:10:32 2022

    As Dominos arrived Pizza Hut held the bulk of the market, and decided Dominos would dry up and blow away. Whatever Dominos did though they eventually took mose of the delivery business too.

    Dominos dominated by embracing technology afaik - specifically at the time embracing online ordering. Their online ordering was pretty neat at the time, and worked properly. I don't think Pizza Hut had anything to respond with.

    ..at least that's my recollection as a customer.
    ---
    * Origin: TassieBob's BBS (21:3/169)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to boraxman on Mon Aug 15 21:34:00 2022
    On 08-13-22 21:16, boraxman wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    I don't know the name of it, but I know its near a Woolworths on the
    Baker Hill side of the town centre.

    OK, I'm not familiar enough with Ballarat to be able to locate it from that.

    The person who came up with the idea probably had grand ideas of how it would be used, but when it came to be built, they just built larger blocks, and left the bit between the houses (which behind my old place
    was large, enough to fit another 10-20 houses in) just empty grassland.
    There were also larger nature strips, I'm not sure why.

    Would be interesting to know the history and reasoning. :)

    It could have been an opportunity for novel design, for something different, but in the end it just became the standard surburban design
    but with empty spaces.

    Who knows?


    ... Don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time and annoys the pig.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Nightfox to Spectre on Mon Aug 15 08:36:00 2022
    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: Spectre to Nightfox on Sun Aug 14 2022 01:09 pm

    Are there any Pizza Huts anywhere? I thought they had joined the
    dodo.

    There are a lot of them in my area.. I didn't think they had gone
    anywhere.

    Woah, wonder where you are, I don't think I've seen one in 30 years....

    I'm in Northwest Oregon.

    Nightfox
  • From Nightfox to fusion on Mon Aug 15 08:45:59 2022
    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: fusion to Irish_Monk on Sat Aug 13 2022 03:44 pm

    ironically both pizza hut and dominos are way above average nowadays

    I don't know about that.. Neither of them are among my favorite pizza places, but last time I had Pizza Hut, I thought it wasn't bad.

    Nightfox
  • From nugax@21:1/167 to Nightfox on Mon Aug 15 11:27:57 2022
    On 15 Aug 22 08:36:00, Nightfox wrote:
    |03-> Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    |03-> By: Spectre to Nightfox on Sun Aug 14 2022 01:09 pm
    |03->
    |03-> Sp>> Are there any Pizza Huts anywhere? I thought they had joined the |03-> Sp>> dodo.
    |03->
    |03-> Ni>> There are a lot of them in my area.. I didnt think they had gone |03-> Ni>> anywhere.
    |03->
    |03-> Sp> Woah wonder where you are I dont think Ive seen one in 30 years.... |03->
    |03-> Im in Northwest Oregon.
    |03->
    |03-> Nightfox
    |03-> --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    |03-> * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
    |03->



    --- CyberBBS v1.0.8 2022/08/15 [LMDE 4/x86_64]
    * Origin: CyberBBS WHQ | http://www.cyberbbs.com (21:1/167)
  • From nugax@21:1/167 to nugax on Mon Aug 15 11:30:14 2022
    On 15 Aug 22 11:27:57, nugax wrote:
    |03-> On 15 Aug 22 08:36:00, Nightfox wrote:
    |03-> |03-> Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    |03-> |03-> By: Spectre to Nightfox on Sun Aug 14 2022 01:09 pm
    |03-> |03->
    |03-> |03-> Sp>> Are there any Pizza Huts anywhere? I thought they had joined the
    |03-> |03-> Sp>> dodo.
    |03-> |03->
    |03-> |03-> Ni>> There are a lot of them in my area.. I didnt think they had gone
    |03-> |03-> Ni>> anywhere.
    |03-> |03->
    |03-> |03-> Sp> Woah wonder where you are I dont think Ive seen one in 30 years....
    |03-> |03->
    |03-> |03-> Im in Northwest Oregon.
    |03-> |03->
    |03-> |03-> Nightfox
    |03-> |03-> --- SBBSecho 3.15-Linux
    |03-> |03-> * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
    |03-> |03->
    |03->
    |03->
    |03->
    |03-> --- CyberBBS v1.0.8 2022/08/15 [LMDE 4/x86_64]
    |03-> * Origin: CyberBBS WHQ | http://www.cyberbbs.com (21:1/167)



    --- CyberBBS v1.0.8 2022/08/15 [LMDE 4/x86_64]
    * Origin: CyberBBS WHQ | http://www.cyberbbs.com (21:1/167)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Spectre on Tue Aug 16 22:42:00 2022
    Dominos would dry up and blow away. Whatever Dominos did though they eventually took mose of the delivery business too. A couple of years
    down the track and Pizza Hut was pretty much gone in Victoria.

    I think Domino's was just the cheapest option. I remember they only had one pizza size, and you could get one for $5. The pizza wasn't that great, but I suspect they won purely on price and location.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Nightfox on Wed Aug 17 20:19:00 2022
    On 08-15-22 08:45, Nightfox wrote to fusion <=-

    I don't know about that.. Neither of them are among my favorite pizza places, but last time I had Pizza Hut, I thought it wasn't bad.

    We've got lots of Italians who can make a great pizza. Pizza Hut and Dominoes are OK, but I prefer the independent family owned shops.


    ... She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Spectre@21:3/101 to Vk3jed on Wed Aug 17 21:54:00 2022
    We've got lots of Italians who can make a great pizza. Pizza Hut and Dominoes are OK, but I prefer the independent family owned shops.

    While I'm also inclined to back the family store, the local one to my
    mother's old place, was run by, I'm guessing some kind of eastern europeans.
    By the time Pizza was a big thing, I'm not so sure to many italians were
    still in that kind of market.

    Going back further, there used to be plenty of Italian fish and chipperies,
    but they gradually turned Greek and eventually asian. You can still find the odd Italian but they're much fewer and further between. Not sure now, its
    been a bit, but there used to be a good one still in Huntingdale. Most of
    the old local fish and chip/arcade setups are completely gone now.

    Spec


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Spectre on Thu Aug 18 12:01:00 2022
    On 08-17-22 21:54, Spectre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    While I'm also inclined to back the family store, the local one to my mother's old place, was run by, I'm guessing some kind of eastern europeans. By the time Pizza was a big thing, I'm not so sure to many italians were still in that kind of market.

    I've seen a mix of Italian and Middle Eastern pizza shop owners.

    Going back further, there used to be plenty of Italian fish and chipperies, but they gradually turned Greek and eventually asian. You
    can still find the odd Italian but they're much fewer and further
    between. Not sure now, its been a bit, but there used to be a good one still in Huntingdale. Most of the old local fish and chip/arcade
    setups are completely gone now.

    Never had Italian fish and chip shops. They were majority Greek when I was a kid, but the Asians are probably more prolific now. And yes, the fish and chips with the pinballs and/or arcade games are pretty much an extinct species now.


    ... In some cases non-violence requires more militancy than violence.
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  • From Nightfox to Vk3jed on Thu Aug 18 09:03:16 2022
    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: Vk3jed to Spectre on Thu Aug 18 2022 12:01 pm

    I've seen a mix of Italian and Middle Eastern pizza shop owners.

    The idea of a middle eastern pizza shop is interesting. And in my area, I know of at least one Indian restaurant that also serves pizza.

    Never had Italian fish and chip shops. They were majority Greek when I was a kid, but the Asians are probably more prolific now. And yes, the fish

    Interesting. I haven't seen a Greek restaurant here serve fish & chips. Most of the time, when I've seen fish & chips here, the restaurant is usually an American restaurant (i.e. Red Robin) or a bar/pub, and some fast food restaurants here have fish & chips too.

    Nightfox
  • From StormTrooper@21:2/108 to Nightfox on Fri Aug 19 02:14:13 2022
    The idea of a middle eastern pizza shop is interesting. And in my area,
    I know of at least one Indian restaurant that also serves pizza.

    You get some interesting pizzas out of these combos.. less familiar with with middle eastern versions, but some of the indians have had goodies like the tandoori pizza.

    ST

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Irish_Monk@21:4/184 to StormTrooper on Fri Aug 19 06:57:09 2022
    like the tandoori pizza.

    Been stuck on Indian food lately. I didnt know they made a tandoori pizza. Will be something I am looking out for now!

    |10I|02rish_|10M|02onk

    ... Computers all wait at the same speed!

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    * Origin: WarpeD SocieTy (21:4/184)
  • From esc@21:4/173 to Irish_Monk on Fri Aug 19 08:02:02 2022
    Been stuck on Indian food lately. I didnt know they made a tandoori
    pizza. Will be something I am looking out for now!

    Same on all counts. Indian food has become an obsession.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A48 2022/07/11 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: m O N T E R E Y b B S . c O M (21:4/173)
  • From Nightfox to esc on Fri Aug 19 09:07:10 2022
    Re: Re: 3.5 weeks to being la
    By: esc to Irish_Monk on Fri Aug 19 2022 08:02 am

    Been stuck on Indian food lately. I didnt know they made a tandoori
    pizza. Will be something I am looking out for now!

    Same on all counts. Indian food has become an obsession.

    I really like Indian food, but I've found that it can be hit or miss, depending on who made it or where I got it from. There are some Indian restaurants in my area I really like, and some I don't like so much. Some places make it very spicy, and/or use spices and flavors that I think leave a weird aftertaste. And I generally prefer to taste the flavors of the food rather than have it be really spicy hot.

    Nightfox
  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to Nightfox on Fri Aug 19 20:51:00 2022
    Nightfox wrote to esc <=-

    Been stuck on Indian food lately. I didnt know they made a tandoori
    pizza. Will be something I am looking out for now!

    Same on all counts. Indian food has become an obsession.

    I really like Indian food, but I've found that it can be hit or
    miss, depending on who made it or where I got it from. There are
    some Indian restaurants in my area I really like, and some I
    don't like so much. Some places make it very spicy, and/or use
    spices and flavors that I think leave a weird aftertaste. And I
    generally prefer to taste the flavors of the food rather than
    have it be really spicy hot.

    I like it a lot too, and agree on the hit-or-miss quality of
    restaurants. I would also say that generally speaking, the restaurants
    I've visited seem a little.... less clean than I'd like. Seems a little primitive/backwards somehow, usually.



    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Nightfox on Sat Aug 20 18:01:00 2022
    On 08-18-22 09:03, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    The idea of a middle eastern pizza shop is interesting. And in my
    area, I know of at least one Indian restaurant that also serves pizza.

    These days, seems anything goes, especially with Asians diversifying into non Asian cusines. :)

    Interesting. I haven't seen a Greek restaurant here serve fish & chips. Most of the time, when I've seen fish & chips here, the restaurant is usually an American restaurant (i.e. Red Robin) or a bar/pub, and some fast food restaurants here have fish & chips too.

    We're like the British, we have fish and chip shops - not restaurants, they are takeaway places. They also tend to do the best burgers, far better than any of the well known chains. And the majority of fish and chip shops are small family run businesses.


    ... "My eyeballs nearly popped out!"
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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Irish_Monk on Sat Aug 20 18:06:00 2022
    On 08-19-22 06:57, Irish_Monk wrote to StormTrooper <=-

    like the tandoori pizza.

    Been stuck on Indian food lately. I didnt know they made a tandoori
    pizza. Will be something I am looking out for now!

    I don't get to eat Indian often, but I do quite like it, and these days, there's a lot of good Indian places around.


    ... Remember that the customs of your tribe are not laws of nature!
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@21:4/122 to esc on Mon Aug 22 09:17:00 2022
    esc wrote to Irish_Monk <=-

    Same on all counts. Indian food has become an obsession.

    I've been making vegetable stews for lunches during the week; I'll usually take a half an onion, carrots and corn, sautee it in the bottom of a pot
    with olive oil. When the onion starts to sweat, add garlic, frozen
    vegetables (kale or spinach), garbanzo or black beans, and vegetable broth
    to cover it all. Bring to a boil then simmer until it thickens.

    I found some seasoning called "balti seasoning" that's a mixture of curry, cumin, paprika and some other spices that I've been tossing into it, and
    love the combination of stewed veggies and curry.


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  • From esc@21:4/173 to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Aug 22 19:38:54 2022
    I found some seasoning called "balti seasoning" that's a mixture of
    curry, cumin, paprika and some other spices that I've been tossing into it, and love the combination of stewed veggies and curry.

    This entire recipe is great. Thanks. I look forward to trying this.

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  • From tenser@21:1/101 to poindexter FORTRAN on Wed Aug 24 22:52:00 2022
    On 22 Aug 2022 at 09:17a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

    I've been making vegetable stews for lunches during the week; I'll
    usually take a half an onion, carrots and corn, sautee it in the bottom of a pot with olive oil. When the onion starts to sweat, add garlic, frozen vegetables (kale or spinach), garbanzo or black beans, and vegetable broth to cover it all. Bring to a boil then simmer until it thickens.

    I found some seasoning called "balti seasoning" that's a mixture of
    curry, cumin, paprika and some other spices that I've been tossing into it, and love the combination of stewed veggies and curry.

    Interesting. "Balti" mans "bucket" in Hindi, but is close to
    a word for "vegetable" in Marathi ("bhaji").

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